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	<title>Comments for Our Earth/Ourselves</title>
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	<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Culture and environment, indigenous ecology, Pacific Northwest history</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Protecting the Pope?  Fear Makes for Distorted Vision by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/protecting-the-pope-fear-makes-for-distorted-vision/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=206#comment-55</guid>
		<description>Thank you for sharing this comment on something you obviously care deeply about.  I appreciate your sense of reverence and spiritual "home" here:  the grandmother did have a permit.  And since two of them are Catholic and brought Catholic crosses and prayers here, I'm not sure the term "pagan" ceremony exactly applies. 
Just speaking for myself, I would like to avoid the labeling of anything as "pagan" with all the implications that go with it.  
Secondly, you bring up an interesting point about holding to one's own spiritual ground that solidly underscores the grandmothers' petition for the Pope to rescind that old edict that all lands not occupied by Christians belonged to them by right of conquest.  Not only did this license some terrible abuses (I can't believe anyone who has read the journal of Columbus would want to celebrated Columbus Day, given the tortures he perpetrated on native peoples in order to enslave them to mine gold).  It also invaded and violated the spiritual homes of those who are due respect every bit as much as we are. 
In our globalizing world, I would like to see an ecumenical stance that both honors the unique spiritual ground of various religions and the common ground we share.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for sharing this comment on something you obviously care deeply about.  I appreciate your sense of reverence and spiritual &#8220;home&#8221; here:  the grandmother did have a permit.  And since two of them are Catholic and brought Catholic crosses and prayers here, I&#8217;m not sure the term &#8220;pagan&#8221; ceremony exactly applies.<br />
Just speaking for myself, I would like to avoid the labeling of anything as &#8220;pagan&#8221; with all the implications that go with it.<br />
Secondly, you bring up an interesting point about holding to one&#8217;s own spiritual ground that solidly underscores the grandmothers&#8217; petition for the Pope to rescind that old edict that all lands not occupied by Christians belonged to them by right of conquest.  Not only did this license some terrible abuses (I can&#8217;t believe anyone who has read the journal of Columbus would want to celebrated Columbus Day, given the tortures he perpetrated on native peoples in order to enslave them to mine gold).  It also invaded and violated the spiritual homes of those who are due respect every bit as much as we are.<br />
In our globalizing world, I would like to see an ecumenical stance that both honors the unique spiritual ground of various religions and the common ground we share.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Mice in the Sink&#8211; and Us by Dan Fitzpatrick</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/the-mice-in-the-sink-and-us/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Fitzpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=140#comment-54</guid>
		<description>I was actually just thinking the other day about whether or not "heroism" occurred in nature. The mice and bat stories are very intriguing.

My other thought was, if atheistic evolution is correct, shouldn't this eliminate creatures that take risks to help others? If two mice were being hunted by a hawk and one "volunteered" so the other may live (of course, I don't even know if that's feasible, but let's say it is), wouldn't this tend to remove the genetic impulse for "heroic martyrdom" because it would remove itself quickly from the gene pool?

The issue of animal pain is perplexing, but in his The Problem of Pain, I think C.S. Lewis does an admirable job of addressing it. Normally the issue is avoided because it is so complex to deal with in a philosophical/theological sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was actually just thinking the other day about whether or not &#8220;heroism&#8221; occurred in nature. The mice and bat stories are very intriguing.</p>
<p>My other thought was, if atheistic evolution is correct, shouldn&#8217;t this eliminate creatures that take risks to help others? If two mice were being hunted by a hawk and one &#8220;volunteered&#8221; so the other may live (of course, I don&#8217;t even know if that&#8217;s feasible, but let&#8217;s say it is), wouldn&#8217;t this tend to remove the genetic impulse for &#8220;heroic martyrdom&#8221; because it would remove itself quickly from the gene pool?</p>
<p>The issue of animal pain is perplexing, but in his The Problem of Pain, I think C.S. Lewis does an admirable job of addressing it. Normally the issue is avoided because it is so complex to deal with in a philosophical/theological sense.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Homeowner&#8217;s Association for Planet Earth? by Dan Fitzpatrick</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/classing-ourselves-out-of-existence/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Fitzpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=244#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, these kinds of HOAs are far too common. They say how tall your house can be, they mandate how tall your grass can be, if you can plant or remove trees from your yard, how many handrails at what angles must be on your deck, etc.

We acknowledge that the world is "ours" collectively, and also that our private property is "ours" in a smaller sense. These kinds of people consider the latter for themselves, but not for anyone else. They presume that because everybody else lives somewhere near your house, they have control over it.

By the way, I particularly like the term "fun-sponge". Accurate and hilarious!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, these kinds of HOAs are far too common. They say how tall your house can be, they mandate how tall your grass can be, if you can plant or remove trees from your yard, how many handrails at what angles must be on your deck, etc.</p>
<p>We acknowledge that the world is &#8220;ours&#8221; collectively, and also that our private property is &#8220;ours&#8221; in a smaller sense. These kinds of people consider the latter for themselves, but not for anyone else. They presume that because everybody else lives somewhere near your house, they have control over it.</p>
<p>By the way, I particularly like the term &#8220;fun-sponge&#8221;. Accurate and hilarious!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Protecting the Pope?  Fear Makes for Distorted Vision by Dan Fitzpatrick</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/protecting-the-pope-fear-makes-for-distorted-vision/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Fitzpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=206#comment-52</guid>
		<description>I can understand the police's initial reaction, though I don't know if their continued insistence was necessary. Even if the Pope had expressed his appreciation of their religious freedom, I still feel it's in a little bit of poor taste to conduct any kind of non-Catholic religious ceremony in St. Peter's square. A Muslim might respect my freedom to be Catholic, but I would not go to Mecca to try and set up a Mass. Pragmatic things aside, it is disrespectful to the host, because performing a different kind of ceremony is, in some way, a rebuke of the host's beliefs.

If these grandmothers were performing some kind of pagan ritual, even if it was for the benefit of the Church, it still seems a bit disrespectful to walk into what amounts to Catholics' living room and do that. However, if they were given permission to do that, that changes things quite a bit. But I think it's critical to remember how important St. Peter's is to Catholics--it's our home, and we often have guests, but just as we need to host them gracefully, we would hope that our invitation would not turn into a scandal or spectacle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can understand the police&#8217;s initial reaction, though I don&#8217;t know if their continued insistence was necessary. Even if the Pope had expressed his appreciation of their religious freedom, I still feel it&#8217;s in a little bit of poor taste to conduct any kind of non-Catholic religious ceremony in St. Peter&#8217;s square. A Muslim might respect my freedom to be Catholic, but I would not go to Mecca to try and set up a Mass. Pragmatic things aside, it is disrespectful to the host, because performing a different kind of ceremony is, in some way, a rebuke of the host&#8217;s beliefs.</p>
<p>If these grandmothers were performing some kind of pagan ritual, even if it was for the benefit of the Church, it still seems a bit disrespectful to walk into what amounts to Catholics&#8217; living room and do that. However, if they were given permission to do that, that changes things quite a bit. But I think it&#8217;s critical to remember how important St. Peter&#8217;s is to Catholics&#8211;it&#8217;s our home, and we often have guests, but just as we need to host them gracefully, we would hope that our invitation would not turn into a scandal or spectacle.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Our Plant and Animal Elders by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/learning-from-our-non-human-elders/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=45#comment-51</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a heartfelt comment with insight in it as well, Lindsay.  The post here, "The Mice in the Sink and Us" concurs with your point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a heartfelt comment with insight in it as well, Lindsay.  The post here, &#8220;The Mice in the Sink and Us&#8221; concurs with your point.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Our Plant and Animal Elders by Lindsay Patrick</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/learning-from-our-non-human-elders/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsay Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=45#comment-50</guid>
		<description>I believe this passage holds the very key to what is missing from society today. "Man's heart away from nature becomes hard".  ~Standing Bear~ This quote describes what has happened to our society. We have forgotten how important our forests are and how important it is not to let animals go extinct. We can obtain a variety of knowledge from nature if we just step back from our busy lives and listen to what it is telling us. We need to be in a partnership with nature rather than being in opposition with it. 

Great Post!
Thank you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe this passage holds the very key to what is missing from society today. &#8220;Man&#8217;s heart away from nature becomes hard&#8221;.  ~Standing Bear~ This quote describes what has happened to our society. We have forgotten how important our forests are and how important it is not to let animals go extinct. We can obtain a variety of knowledge from nature if we just step back from our busy lives and listen to what it is telling us. We need to be in a partnership with nature rather than being in opposition with it. </p>
<p>Great Post!<br />
Thank you</p>
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		<title>Comment on Homeowner&#8217;s Association for Planet Earth? by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/classing-ourselves-out-of-existence/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=244#comment-49</guid>
		<description>After all, what could be more revolutionary in every good sense of the word than choosing joyful community and a hopeful future?  The lawyer who worked to shut down Trojan for decades once observed that the more top heavy an organization is (and also the less responsive to human and non-human life?) the more likely it is to topple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After all, what could be more revolutionary in every good sense of the word than choosing joyful community and a hopeful future?  The lawyer who worked to shut down Trojan for decades once observed that the more top heavy an organization is (and also the less responsive to human and non-human life?) the more likely it is to topple.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Homeowner&#8217;s Association for Planet Earth? by Barry</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/classing-ourselves-out-of-existence/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=244#comment-46</guid>
		<description>What a novel idea. It all sounds so revolutionary to me. I submit that the federal and state bureaucratic structure is arbitrarily authoritarian and despositve under those set of facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a novel idea. It all sounds so revolutionary to me. I submit that the federal and state bureaucratic structure is arbitrarily authoritarian and despositve under those set of facts.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Burning down the House by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/setting-the-world-on-fire/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=124#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I wonder what started these, Haylee. Must have been harrowing to drive through.  I know the summers in the Willamette Valley are usually dry, but this summer it has been so dry and windy I've been watering my native plants. They might survive without, but they certainly seem unhappy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what started these, Haylee. Must have been harrowing to drive through.  I know the summers in the Willamette Valley are usually dry, but this summer it has been so dry and windy I&#8217;ve been watering my native plants. They might survive without, but they certainly seem unhappy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Burning down the House by Haylee Campbell</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/setting-the-world-on-fire/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Haylee Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=124#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Right now, there are fires burning along the Interstate 5 corridor between Eugene and Salem. I have never been directly affected by a wildfire before today. I was on my way from Albany to Salem and got stuck on the Freeway for 30 minutes. I was one of the lucky people that got off and made it to Jefferson before they closed off the roads. When I was driving by the fire, I was no more than 10 feet away from firefighters trying to extinguish the fires burning in the fields along the road. After my meeting in Salem, I was listening to the radio and had to completely go around the freeway and it took me an extra hour to get home. The radio said that the fire has spread to a hill full of trees and undergrowth and was not burning at 20 acres. They had over 50 different fire truck units there and it had gotten so bad that they had to call in air support.

I was driving after seeing that and was thinking about all of the trees there that had been growing since I was little. Never has that mountain been bare since I could remember. Most of these trees were over 20 years old, but they were burned to the ground in less than an hour. I also felt bad for all of the animals living in that area!  (I am a sap for animals). 

It was so amazing to think that those trees were growing for well over a decade, but they were destroyed in minutes.  Our communities have come together to help battle this fire that keeps changing course. ODOT, Six Different fire stations (Jefferson, Linn County, Albany, etc). Oregon State Police, and The Sheriffs office are all involved to try to stop this fire before it hits the especially dry fields only a few hundred yards away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right now, there are fires burning along the Interstate 5 corridor between Eugene and Salem. I have never been directly affected by a wildfire before today. I was on my way from Albany to Salem and got stuck on the Freeway for 30 minutes. I was one of the lucky people that got off and made it to Jefferson before they closed off the roads. When I was driving by the fire, I was no more than 10 feet away from firefighters trying to extinguish the fires burning in the fields along the road. After my meeting in Salem, I was listening to the radio and had to completely go around the freeway and it took me an extra hour to get home. The radio said that the fire has spread to a hill full of trees and undergrowth and was not burning at 20 acres. They had over 50 different fire truck units there and it had gotten so bad that they had to call in air support.</p>
<p>I was driving after seeing that and was thinking about all of the trees there that had been growing since I was little. Never has that mountain been bare since I could remember. Most of these trees were over 20 years old, but they were burned to the ground in less than an hour. I also felt bad for all of the animals living in that area!  (I am a sap for animals). </p>
<p>It was so amazing to think that those trees were growing for well over a decade, but they were destroyed in minutes.  Our communities have come together to help battle this fire that keeps changing course. ODOT, Six Different fire stations (Jefferson, Linn County, Albany, etc). Oregon State Police, and The Sheriffs office are all involved to try to stop this fire before it hits the especially dry fields only a few hundred yards away.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Homeowner&#8217;s Association for Planet Earth? by Camila Thorndike</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/classing-ourselves-out-of-existence/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Camila Thorndike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=244#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we could submit this as creative fodder to a show like Desperate Housewives.  Or the Anti-Housewives? I am absolutely clueless when it comes to TV shows - never seen this one, and likely never will as I avoid TV like the plague.  This aversion to the showcase of popular American culture coupled with my somewhat untraditional upbringing makes me feel like a foreign tourist to Bel's suburban world.  

I thank her for sharing her warming and hilarious story, which confirms my hopes that behind those "cookie-cutter" facades there must be fellow nature-appreciatists who sympathize with my aversion to the oil-dependent world of endless bleach products, tupperware, and anti-bacterial handsoap, within which plastic mini-fish float against a label reading "Liquid Nature."  

I've heard of these militant Neighborhood Associations, which sounded too fascist to be true - aren't there laws against this sort of discrimination? Could we petition for the rights of clotheslines and chickens under Affirmative Action for Planet Earth?  I cringe to think of the ramifications of such Thought Police-mentality, which must daily squelch hundreds of "dangerous" efforts to be self-sufficient, eco-friendly and sustainable consumers and home owners.  

Bel, what to do? Sign me up to volunteer for the guerrilla revolution.  We shall conquer with spade and seed packets, real-cloth napkins and laundry-line lassos!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we could submit this as creative fodder to a show like Desperate Housewives.  Or the Anti-Housewives? I am absolutely clueless when it comes to TV shows - never seen this one, and likely never will as I avoid TV like the plague.  This aversion to the showcase of popular American culture coupled with my somewhat untraditional upbringing makes me feel like a foreign tourist to Bel&#8217;s suburban world.  </p>
<p>I thank her for sharing her warming and hilarious story, which confirms my hopes that behind those &#8220;cookie-cutter&#8221; facades there must be fellow nature-appreciatists who sympathize with my aversion to the oil-dependent world of endless bleach products, tupperware, and anti-bacterial handsoap, within which plastic mini-fish float against a label reading &#8220;Liquid Nature.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard of these militant Neighborhood Associations, which sounded too fascist to be true - aren&#8217;t there laws against this sort of discrimination? Could we petition for the rights of clotheslines and chickens under Affirmative Action for Planet Earth?  I cringe to think of the ramifications of such Thought Police-mentality, which must daily squelch hundreds of &#8220;dangerous&#8221; efforts to be self-sufficient, eco-friendly and sustainable consumers and home owners.  </p>
<p>Bel, what to do? Sign me up to volunteer for the guerrilla revolution.  We shall conquer with spade and seed packets, real-cloth napkins and laundry-line lassos!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The NIMBY Lie by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/the-nimby-lie/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your compassionate and thoughtful reply, Katie!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your compassionate and thoughtful reply, Katie!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Burning down the House by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/setting-the-world-on-fire/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=124#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Good for you and for your child, Katie!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good for you and for your child, Katie!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Superpower of Foresight by Madronna Holden</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/the-superpower-of-foresight/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Madronna Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=236#comment-40</guid>
		<description>I am sorry this happened to your father, Katie.  With all we have to do for our environment, we can't afford to treat those who are on our side like this.  Being committed to something and caring about it (as the watershed folks obviously do) does not  excuse being carried away with a patronizing attitude that winds up working against their own purposes. 
As for your problems with bureaucracy, I can't make a general pronouncement on this-- I can only thank you for persevering
-- as I also hope you do with your organic certification of your land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry this happened to your father, Katie.  With all we have to do for our environment, we can&#8217;t afford to treat those who are on our side like this.  Being committed to something and caring about it (as the watershed folks obviously do) does not  excuse being carried away with a patronizing attitude that winds up working against their own purposes.<br />
As for your problems with bureaucracy, I can&#8217;t make a general pronouncement on this&#8211; I can only thank you for persevering<br />
&#8211; as I also hope you do with your organic certification of your land.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Burning down the House by Katie Sapp</title>
		<link>http://holdenma.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/setting-the-world-on-fire/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie Sapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://holdenma.wordpress.com/?p=124#comment-39</guid>
		<description>We seem to want everything as quickly as possible here in the U.S. I just finished the book Fast Food Nation which has a section on how much of the beef sold in the U.S. cannot be sold in the UK. It would not pass their inspections. But, many plants, clean out all of their machines, get healthier cows (i.e. ones that can walk to slaughter on their own four hooves), and slow down their assemble lines to a rate where workers stop slicing themselves to produce hamburger that can be sold to the EU. But, for my son, they think that the other meat is good enough. I am pretty sure that it is not. I have unintentionally stopped eating red meat since I read that book. As sick as it sounds, until I can look into the eyes of the cow I intend to eat and know exactly where it was born and where it grew up, it will not end up in my or my child’s body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We seem to want everything as quickly as possible here in the U.S. I just finished the book Fast Food Nation which has a section on how much of the beef sold in the U.S. cannot be sold in the UK. It would not pass their inspections. But, many plants, clean out all of their machines, get healthier cows (i.e. ones that can walk to slaughter on their own four hooves), and slow down their assemble lines to a rate where workers stop slicing themselves to produce hamburger that can be sold to the EU. But, for my son, they think that the other meat is good enough. I am pretty sure that it is not. I have unintentionally stopped eating red meat since I read that book. As sick as it sounds, until I can look into the eyes of the cow I intend to eat and know exactly where it was born and where it grew up, it will not end up in my or my child’s body.</p>
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